UNITED STATES COMMISSION ON SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE
(HELSINKI COMMISSION) HOLDS HEARING:
MUSEUM OF THE HISTORY OF POLISH JEWS
MARCH 13, 2008
COMMISSIONERS:
REP. ALCEE L. HASTINGS, D-FLA., CHAIRMAN
REP. LOUISE M. SLAUGHTER, D-N.Y.
REP. MIKE MCINTYRE, D-N.C.
REP. HILDA L. SOLIS, D-CALIF.
REP. G.K. BUTTERFIELD, D-N.C.
REP. CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, R-N.J.
REP. ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, R-ALA.
REP. MIKE PENCE, R-IND.
REP. JOSEPH R. PITTS, R-PENN.
SEN. BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, D-MD., CO-CHAIRMAN
SEN. CHRISTOPHER J. DODD, D-CONN.
SEN. RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, D-WIS.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, D-N.Y.
SEN. JOHN F. KERRY, D-MASS.
SEN. SAM BROWNBACK, R-KAN.
SEN. GORDON H. SMITH, R-ORE.
SEN. SAXBY CHAMBLISS, R-GA.
SEN. RICHARD BURR, R-N.C.
WITNESSES/PANELISTS:
EWA JUNCZYK-ZIOMECKA,
UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE,
CHANCELLERY OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE
REPUBLIC OF POLAND
EWA WIERZYNSKA,
DEPUTY DIRECTOR,
MUSEUM OF THE HISTORY OF POLISH JEWS, WARSAW
SIGMUND ROLAT,
CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS,
NORTH AMERICAN COUNCIL,
MUSEUM OF THE HISTORY OF POLISH JEWS
The hearing was held at 2:40 p.m. in Room B-318 of the Rayburn
House Office Building, Washington, D.C., Congressman Alcee L. Hastings,
chairman of the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe (U.S. Helsinki
Commission), moderating.
[*]
HASTINGS: I'm going to gavel the hearing to order. We have all sorts of
complications with votes, as you well know. And my colleague, Representative
Smith, is going to be back real shortly. But I'd like to get started, and
maybe I can occupy some time with my statement, which you probably can bury
(ph). OK, so we're home free.
Last May, I went to Poland to participate in a conference on security and
democracy in the Middle East. And I was fortunate enough, during that visit,
to have the opportunity to meet with the director and deputy director of the
Museum of the History of Polish Jews. And they were kind enough to introduce
me to the extraordinary vision they have for this extraordinary museum.
It's my hope that, with today's hearing on Capitol Hill, we can introduce an
even larger community of people to that vision.
Prior to the Holocaust, Poland may have had the largest Jewish population in
the world. The losses of the Holocaust are measured not only by the number of
Polish citizens whose lives were lost during the Holocaust, but by the
destruction of a thousand years of extraordinary Polish Jewish cohabitation.
Indeed, when French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, spoke of the museum recently,
he said: It will be a reminder of how quickly hatred can doom an entire
community to extermination.
And as we know, genocide is not just a remote piece of history, but a terrible
plague we will continue to face today and tomorrow, unless we put an end to it
once and for all. Today, the museum of the history of Polish Jews represents a
singular historic effort in Europe, not only to honor those victims of
genocide, but to reclaim a part of Polish history that the Nazis sought to
utterly eradicate.
In a country that still struggles with its own legacy of anti-Semitism, this is
a critically important undertaking. I was not able to go back to Poland to
attend the groundbreaking ceremonies for the museum last June. But I did send
a staffer from the Helsinki Commission. And I'm reliably informed that,
notwithstanding extremely heavy rain, this was a well-attended and properly
momentous occasion.
Among the many dignitaries who participated in the groundbreaking ceremony, was
the chief rabbi of Tel Aviv, Yisrael Meir Lau, whose own parents came from
Poland, and who was born in Poland. He invited the Iranian president, who has
denied the Holocaust, to visit the museum when it opens.
And I want to quote exactly what the rabbi said: "Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is
invited to come here to see the millions of Polish Jews and to know also how
they perished from this world, so he will understand the Holocaust is real -- a
real thing, is not a legend. You cannot deny history. You cannot deny facts.
And the fact and the history of Polish Jews will be shown, expressed and
represented here in this museum," unquote.
I hope I'll be in Poland when the museum opens. I'd like to be there for that.
And friends, I'd like to see the Iranian leader come to this museum.
Finally, I know that our ranking member, Chris Smith, will talk about the bill
he introduced to authorize a $5 million U.S. contribution for the work of this
museum. And I want to commend my friend and colleague, Chris Smith, for
spearheading that effort. I co-sponsored this bill when it was introduced in
'06 and again last year. And I hope, with the help of co-chairman Cardin and
others, we can get it passed by the Senate during this Congress. And I thank
you very much.
Before introducing the witnesses at this time, I would recognize Chris for any
comments.
SMITH: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I especially want to thank you
for holding this very important hearing and for inviting our distinguished
witnesses who are truly visionaries and people committed to making a very
important contribution, but one that will keep on giving in terms of people who
will be touched for generations to come at this museum gets up and running.
As we all know, Mr. Chairman, at the beginning of World War II, Poland had the
largest Jewish population in Europe. According to some estimates, 80 percent
of the world (inaudible) had family ties to this pre-war community. And
tragically, as a result of the Holocaust, a once (inaudible) community was
virtually destroyed.
In '96, a group of very thoughtful and talented people developed the idea for a
museum dedicated to the culture, art and history of Poland's Jews. As a result
of the museum, as one of the museum's founders told me on one trip several
years ago, we often learned how Jews died, but rarely how they lived.
The Museum on the History of Polish Jews will change this by not only
commemorating and remembering, with great sorrow, the 3 million Polish Jews who
died during Holocaust and World War II, but also celebrating the rich 1,000
years of Polish Jewish life. The interactive museum will allow visitors to
review the log history of Jews in Poland in context, examining their culture,
their accomplishments and the challenges that they faced.
It was on a trip to Warsaw, seven years ago, that I met with museum advocates.
And this vision of a dynamic institution focused on the lives and contributions
of Poland's Jews caught my attention. I have ever since been trying to promote
this legislation, as you pointed out so aptly. We saw it die in the last
Congress.
But we've now resurrected it, gotten it passed in the House. And I do believe,
and I have already made phone calls to friends over at the Senate that we
thought might be putting holds on it, and have been advised that that's not the
case. And I certainly hope that turns out to be true. But I do think it will
get a swift look and passage by the U.S. Senate.
The museum -- and I would ask unanimous consent that a lot of the comments here
will be made a part of the record, Mr. Chairman.
HASTINGS: Without objection.
SMITH: Because I know our distinguished witnesses will speak to all of the
particulars about this very, very important museum. But I do want to say the
$5 million, it is our hope -- which is a modest contribution -- will express in
some way, some small way, U.S. heartfelt commitment to not just the museum
building, bricks and mortar, but obviously and most importantly to the people
it represents.
And I do believe this bipartisan effort, which has been strongly backed by our
chairman, Chairman Hastings, and by Ben Cardin that runs the other side, will
come to fruition very, very shortly. And I hope and pray that it has a real
impact, not only in educating, motivating, enlightening, but also in combating
this virulent, new spike in anti-Semitism, which regrettably is growing in
Europe, United States, Canada and really the world.
People can be -- young people in particular (inaudible) values of tolerance and
respect. And this museum, I think, will play a major role in that. So again,
I thank you.
And I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
HASTINGS: Thank you very much, Chris. I'd also ask also unanimous consent
that Senator Cardin's statement be made a part of the record. And I'm sure
there's no objection to that.
We're extremely fortunate to have with us today three outstanding individuals.
And their biographies have been made available on the table just outside this
hearing room. So I won't read all these fine things about all of you. But I
ask our participants to please refer to those biographies in full.
We're joined by Ewa Junczyk-Ziomecka. How'd I do?
JUNCZYK-ZIOMECKA: Yes, very well.
HASTINGS: The undersecretary of state at the Chancellery of the President of
the Republic of Poland in charge of social issues. And she's come all the way
from Warsaw to be here with us. And thank you, Minister.
And we're also joined by Ewa Wierzynska, the deputy director of the Museum of
the History of Polish Jews. And we met in Warsaw. And I'm glad that you're
here; most seriously regret that we won't get an opportunity to spend as much
time as I'd like; but recognizing that she too came all the way from Poland.
Well, when I was in Poland, I came all the way from the United States.
And we're joined by Sigmund Rolat, who came here from just little old
up-the-road New York. But he is originally from Poland and is the chairman of
the board of directors of the North American Council of the Museum of the
History of Polish Jews.
As an aside, when I was in Warsaw, I had an opportunity -- a young man from the
United States embassy took me to the cemetery. And it's one of -- among the
many places that I visited that is a poignant reminder of the circumstances,
having been left in much of its state through the years. And I mention that,
because another person that has been actively involved in all of these
endeavors has since departed. And I believe all of you either know him or know
of him for sure. And that's mine and Chris' and others' colleague, Tom Lantos.
I had the delightful experience of visiting in the Czech Republic yet another
cemetery of some historic significance. And I was with Tom at that cemetery.
And it's hard to conduct these kinds of undertakings without his memory
hovering over the room. But I'm sure he gives Chris and me his blessings in
light of the fact that both of us were among his strong supporters and friends.
We will start with you, Madame Minister, if you would like please.
JUNCZYK-ZIOMECKA: Thank you. I would like to thank Chairman Hastings for
holding this important hearing and inviting me to testify. I also want to
extend my gratitude to Congressman Smith for introducing the legislation in
support of the Museum of the History of Polish Jews in Warsaw. Let me also
express how the Polish authority high value the role of the Helsinki Commission
in promoting democracy and human rights.
It is a privilege to have an opportunity to represent new, free and democratic
Poland, with it's -- one of the most important educational projects, the Museum
of the History of Polish Jews.
For over 60 years, or three generations, Poles have been rebuilding their
country and waiting for the time when the whole country reclaims its identity.
The time arrived in 1989. Following the political and social changes in years
1989, 1990, when the common system collapsed, giving way to democratic
structure, significant changes took place and impossible became possible. One
such former impossible, even unthinkable, is the Museum of the History of
Polish Jews in Warsaw.
Democratic changes in Poland took place also within the Jewish community. The
representatives, knowing that I'm coming to meet with you, asked me to tell you
that there are Jews in Poland -- a tiny community of possible 15,000, yet very
dynamic and vibrant, and very sensitive to being told it does not exist.
While the number of Jews living in Poland today is small, Jewish presence in
public consciousness is large. But, of course, this community is not even a
partial of the all the glory the Polish Jewry was. And this is precisely why
we have to be (inaudible). There is, after all, a reason for which Polish
Jewry, which was 3.5 million strong at the eve of World War II, is now only
four-tenths of 1,000. That reason is the shah.
We will build this museum to reclaim what is the Polish heritage, extending for
ages before the Holocaust. This is the legacy of Polish Jews who were on the
soil we share, not just tolerated guests, but partners in a common history. A
part of that history was stained by oppression and injustice. The museum will
document that as well.
We cannot bring the victims back to life; nor can we undo the wrongs they
suffered. What we can and will do is bringing back the magnificent history for
Poles, whatever the (inaudible) and religion, and for Polish Jews, wherever
they reside today, to learn and cherish. They have a right to that history.
My country has an obligation to ensure the fulfillment of this right.
The new democratic Poland has the courage to confront its history. As
President Kaczynski has stressed on many occasions, there is no history of
Poland without the history of Polish Jews.
The museum is a public-private partnership established on the basis of an
agreement signed on January 25, 2005 by the Polish minister of culture, the
mayor of Warsaw, Lech Kaczynski, today president of the Republic of Poland, and
the Jewish (inaudible) to this (inaudible) in Poland. The first institution of
its type is the new Poland, he museum has had the honor and faced the challenge
of being a trailblazer in the area of the historical preservation in Central
and Eastern Europe.
The museum's diverse funding highlights how co-exist agendas among government
entities and the private non-profit institution can serve a higher purpose in
informing new generation of the war's citizens in the name of education,
enlightenment, respect, tolerance and commemoration.
The minister of culture, as well as the Warsaw municipal authorities committed
themselves to contribute the cost of the creation of the building of the museum
by the Association of Jewish Historical Institute offered to finance the cost
of the future Berman (ph) Exhibition and educational and outreach programs.
Since the signing of the agreement, a new election took place. And the new
Polish government, the new president of Poland and the new mayor of Warsaw were
elected. Everybody, the past and current presidents of Poland, past and
current representatives of the Polish government and the local government
support the project to the best of their capabilities.
In the statement by mayor of Warsaw, Hanna Gronkiewicz-Waltz, I would like to
submit to the commission, she declared that building the Museum of the History
of Polish Jews is a priority project of that Warsaw local authorities. Both
public partners, the city of Warsaw and the Ministry of Culture and Heritage,
they affirmed their willingness to cover the cost of the construction of museum
building, in spite of many competing needs, and a sharp increase in costs.
This is a national commitment above partisan division. The Polish authorities
support the museum, but not control its contents. No other nation in the
world, but Americans, can understand such an achievement in less than 20 years
after six years under Communist control of every aspect of Polish daily life.
The museum is located in what once was the heart of the Warsaw Jewish quarter;
from 1940 throughout 1943, the center of the Warsaw ghetto; and following the
Ghetto Uprising an area reduced to sea of rubble. This sea of ruin and
devastation -- that was Warsaw, to tell you the truth, of my early childhood
and indeed my playground in the mid-'50s, when the first housing developments
were built.
The light feel in the light-reflecting building of the museum will face the
monument commemorating the heroes of the Ghetto Uprising -- one of the two
uprisings of Warsaw during he Second World War. The significance of this site,
its historical weight and power with which it speaks to visitors and the people
who live there is one of the foundations of the future museum.
No visit to Warsaw, indeed to Poland, would be complete without a visit to the
Museum of the History of Polish Jews. The museum is the first and only museum
to focus on the history of Polish Jews and will take its place alongside the
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, the Jewish Museum in
Berlin, Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, Beth Hatefutsoth Museum of the Jewish Diaspora
in Tel Aviv, as one of the most important institutions of its kind.
What makes the museum in Warsaw unique is the very place where the Polish Jews
have lived for almost 1,000 years. But they have been able to preserve the
culture and the religion with the heritage which has been part of the heritage
of Poland, Europe and the world.
Distinguished members of this meeting, I truly believed that the museum will
connect people around the universal value of respect for different culture,
which can co-exist and overcome racist, anti-Semitism and (inaudible). People
of Poland are counting on your support. Thank you.
SMITH: Madame Undersecretary Junczyk-Ziomecka -- I hope I got that right --
thank you so very much for that very powerful statement and for the
extraordinary commitment of the Polish government, and yourself in particular,
for this project and the important program. And again, your words were, I
think, you know, a call to arms for all of us to make sure that this
legislation does indeed get enacted. And hopefully it will be the start. The
ongoing commitment should be there as well from our point of view.
So thank you so very much.
Just for the record, Chairman Hastings left for a vote that's occurring on the
floor right now, regrettably. You know, democracy is messy. There's always a
competing interest. But he wants you to know that he will look at the rest of
your statement and is obviously very committed to this project as well.
JUNCZYK-ZIOMECKA: Congressman, I would like to submit two statements, one by
the Mayor of Warsaw and another by the Minister of Culture and Heritage in
Poland.
SMITH: Without objection, those statements will be made a part of the
permanent record.
JUNCZYK-ZIOMECKA: Thank you.
SMITH: I'd like to now ask Ewa Wierzynska if she would present her testimony.
WIERZYNSKA: Honorable Congressman Smith, ladies and gentlemen, it's an honor
for me to represent the leadership of the Museum of the History of Polish Jews
today and Mr. Jerzy Halbersztadt, the director. Please allow me to take you on
a five-minute tour of the museum, a living center for education and culture
dedicated to the preserving of the lasting legacy of 1,000 years of Jewish life
in Poland; dedicated to the education of present and future generations in
appreciation of the Jewish culture, an education free of prejudice and in the
spirit of dialogue and mutual respect.
My distinguished friend and colleague, Ewa Ziomecka, has talked eloquently
about the location where the museum will stand. So I will tell you about the
building. The museum architect is a Finnish designer, Mr. Rainer Mahlamaki,
who emerged as the winner of an international architectural competition. This
competition was the first of its kind in free Poland.
The Finnish design, in the best traditions of Finnish architecture, is hailed
for the way it incorporated the concept of a narrative core exhibition into the
design of the building. It is also admired for how really the architect deals
with the historical significance of this special location and the (inaudible)
urban environment that surrounds it today.
The museum echoes the geometrical shape of the plaza on which it is situated.
But the transparent glass walls reveal an interior of organic undulated forms
-- forms that allude to the parting of the Red Sea through which the prophet
Moses led the Jews. The limestone curved walls and the ceiling are lit from
above, providing a dramatic site from both interior and exterior viewpoints.
And the transparency and light reflects the desire for an open reckoning of the
past.
We like to call this building the House of Light. We like to talk about the
various circles of darkness that this light, emanating from our museum, will
penetrate.
Education is light. Our museum offers 140-square-foot space comparable to
Washington's Holocaust Memorial, which houses not only the core exhibition, but
also an auditorium for 500, a screening room, a resource center, meeting rooms
for the young people, as well as the core exhibition -- a temporary exhibition
space, I should add.
The story we tell spans centuries rather than five years. But the exhibition
used the narrative method of the Holocaust Memorial in your home town. They
tell the story of historical events rather than focus on the presentation of
objects, artwork or artifact. The eight galleries that house the museum's core
exhibition will be equipped with the latest technology, videos, films,
computer-generated holograms and two additional three-dimensional scale models
will together enable visitors to explore close to 1,000 years of life in Poland.
The core exhibition is being developed by an international team of scholars,
historians, as well as museum experts and designers from Poland, Great Britain,
Israel and the United States. Professor Barbara Kirshenblatt-Gimblett with us
today -- show yourself, Barbara -- heads the core exhibition planning team.
The daughter of Polish Jews who immigrated before the Holocaust, Barbara
Kirshenblatt-Gimblett is a cultural anthropologist and has written many books
and countless articles on the subjects of museums and Jewish culture throughout
history.
More than a theater of history, and a unique learning environment than a
conventional exhibition of objects and labels, our exhibition will creatively
engage the minds and hearts of diverse visitors of all ages, whether they
immerse themselves in the world of the medieval feudal kingdom of Poland, where
the Jews once found direction, or in the culturally diverse and turbulent 20
years of the inter-war Polish republic. The visitors will discover the vibrant
civilization of what was once the largest Jewish community in the world and the
center of the Jewish Diaspora, so brutally ended by the Holocaust.
As an international educational institution, cultural center and meeting place,
the museum will provide a unique learning environment, not only the
cutting-edge, multimedia, narrative exhibition I just talked about, but also
writing public programs, shows, performances, conferences, symposia, meetings,
commemorations and resource center and educational programs for Polish school
and Jewish youth groups, international students exchanges and collaborated
projects that engage the people in Poland and abroad in the recovery and
exploration of the legacy of Polish Jews.
I would like to show you a visual depicting one of these projects -- the
reconstruction of the roof of a wooden synagogue, with its wonderful
polychromy, which we hope will be done by international group of art and
architecture students led by an American group specializing in this type of
reconstruction. Even before the museum opens, its educational mission has
begun. Public programs continue, as I speak here.
Since 2002, the museum has had influential supporters at home and abroad.
Former and present presidents have been supporters, as Madame Ziomecka has
said; and Warsaw-born president of the state of Israel, Shimon Peres, since
2003 the chairman of the International Honorary Committee.
As you have heard, both mayor of Warsaw, Ms. Gronkiewicz-Waltz, and the new
minister of culture and national heritage, Mr. Zdrojewski, have reaffirmed
their determination in spite of the fact that the cost of the building exceeds
by $51 million the initial 2004 estimates. While we can be certain that the
public partners will raise the original prototypical building, approximately
$35 million remains to be raised by the international community of public and
private donors.
We are fortunate that, to date, we have been able to raise $7.6 million from
the government of the Republic of Germany, and more than $11 million from
private foundation, corporate and institutional sources. Most recently, as you
heard, the president of France pledged his support. The money that we are
raising today, and in the years to come, will be needed to build a museum that
will indeed be worthy of the subject that it depicts.
Honorable ladies and gentlemen, please allow me to share with you a very
personal conviction. The Museum of the History of Polish Jews, with its
boldness of vision, its noble mission and its international scope appeals to
true visionaries. We have seen it demonstrate the power to inspire and even
create philanthropists, people who saw in our museum a way to engage with the
past, the present and the future.
We hope that we will find amongst you visionaries and the next friends of the
museum. Thank you very much for your attention. And I would like to submit my
full presentation for the record.
HASTINGS: I thank you. And Madame Minister, I'm sure that Representative
Smith offered the same for you. I saw you flipping through your pages. We
will include all of it in the record. And we do apologize for going back and
forth. But the record is what's important. And it will be made a part of the
museum one day I'm sure.
Mr. Rolat, please, if you will go forward.
ROLAT: Chairman Hastings, it is a very great honor for me to address you here
today -- an honor perhaps even more appreciated by a naturalist citizen of this
wonderful country. Only in America could a young boy, a survivor of a terrible
war, find the opportunity which I found here for education and success.
I am here today to summarize this testimony already submitted to explain why,
now, is the right time for the Museum of the History of Polish Jews and why
Warsaw is the perfect place for it. For the sake of brevity, my short remarks
will be personal. But when I refer to my children, I speak for all Jewish
youngsters. When I refer to my native city in Poland, it exemplifies most of
Poland today.
Some 10 million Americans have Polish roots. Over 70 percent of American Jews
have Polish roots. Proudly, I'm one of them.
I was born in Czestochowa on July 1 many years ago. I fondly remember my happy
childhood. My parents and my older brother, Yezhik (ph), were killed during
the war. Both my father and Yezhik (ph) died fighting the Nazis. Yezhik (ph)
at 18 was the youngest in a group of six partisans. My father was killed in
the Treblinka death camp uprising.
Czestochowa is the most Catholic city in Poland. When the Pope visits Poland,
it is not Warsaw or Krakow which are first on his itinerary. It is
Czestochowa, the seat of Jasna Gora Monastery and of the Black Madonna icon.
One-third of Czestochowa's pre-war population was Jewish -- a very important
and productive third. Not only did Jews build the first textile mill and paper
factory, but also a concert hall and theater were founded by Jewish
philanthropy. Czestochowa is typical of other Polish cities.
Years ago, before the bar mitzvah and bat mitzvahs, I took my son and my
daughters to Poland to see their ancestral land. I meant for them to learn,
not only about the Nazi factories of death; I also wanted them to see where
Jews thrived and co-existed with Poles for almost 1,000 years. It was, I
suppose, my own private version of the March of the Living.
How enhanced would have been the experience of my children if their tour
commenced at our projected museum? How profoundly a few hours there would have
prepared them for the next few days? How important then is this museum now for
Polish young people?
The history of Polish Jews is almost as old as historic Poland. No less, no
less, than the current president of Poland, Lech Kaczynski, stated at the
groundbreaking of our museum last year that there is no history of Poland
without the history of Polish Jews.
Elaborating -- for hundreds of years, more Jews lived in Poland. In fact, ever
since the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, more Jews lived in Poland
than anywhere else in the world. The Va'ad Arba' Aratzot, the Jewish Council
of the Four Lands of Poland, was in fact the only Jewish executive political
body which existed between the destruction of the second temple and the
creation of the Jewish agency in Palestine.
Elaborating on the writings of the German Jewish philosopher, Emil Fackenheim,
Bosne (ph) Rabbi Joseph Polack states directly, in a recent letter to me:
Without Poland, there would be no Torah today.
Interestingly, a Polish historian, Pavesh Viervack (ph), in a new interview --
recent interview -- also cites the same philosopher. And he says that, in
addition to the Ten Commandments, there are 613 injunctions which are the body
of the Jewish law. He is now the architect of the 614th injunction, which
states most important is that Yiddishkeit, Jewishness, be preserved.
Otherwise, we allow the Nazis to triumph. For that, we owe a debt of gratitude
for that preservation. We owe a debt of gratitude to historic Poland.
Through the millennium, the Yiddishkeit thrived and was preserved in Poland and
the world from the ascendance of Polish Jews. As Senator Menendez so well put
it, when introducing the Museum Assistance Bill, our museum will protect a
spirit deeply connected to our own, our American heritage.
And that Jewish heritage in Poland, we cannot afford to let slip away. Jews
fought in Poland's wars and uprising to reclaim Polish independence. They
fought and died from that great cavalry commander Yosolevich (ph) to over 800
Polish Jewish officers butchered at (inaudible) in the Soviet Union.
As U.S. culture is magnificently the product of its melting pot civilization,
so too Polish Jews played an integral part in enriching their Polish
fatherland. The poetry of Julian Tuwin, the prose of Isaac Bashevis Singer,
the art of Bruno Schulz, the music of Arthur Rubinstein, the greats of theater
and film, all these were proud elements of what we call today Polish culture.
On one of my many visits in Poland, I met with several officials in
Czestochowa. Professor Jerzy Mizgalski asked me at that time for my help in
presenting an exhibition about the long history of Jews in Czestochowa. The
rich original archive of information, artifacts, photographs, multimedia -- in
fact, a microcosm of what our museum is going to show in Warsaw. He stated at
that time would provide the first such showing of a once-proud community, now
reduced to a handful and almost forgotten.
In my own meetings with Polish young people, I too invariably found almost
total ignorance about the not-so-long-ago Jewish neighbors. But without
exception, they were very eager to find out. Still, I was fascinated. And
Professor Mizgalski related to me his recent Jewish history course for which a
35-seat classroom was assigned, and for which over 300 students applied.
The exhibition, "Jews of Czestochowa," and an academic symposium were very
successful. In an annual contest of the largest newspaper, the exhibition was
voted the best cultural event of the year.
Perhaps the most important consequence was a program at the local college of
fine arts entitled, "From the Inspiration of Jewish Culture," which after
Czestochowa was shown at the National Library in Warsaw. And the Ministry of
Culture incorporated that very program into a nationwide curriculum. Many
encouraging events and programs followed.
Incidentally, the exhibition, "The Jews of Czestochowa," accompanied by
examples of the art from the inspiration of Jewish culture is traveling
throughout the U.S.A. And the condensed version was shown in 2006, right here
at the Rotunda of the Russell Senate Office Building.
This trend is the milieu and the need and the spirit where our museum will
rise. Like the phoenix out of ashes, it will become the deserved paragon of
excellence.
And when I express my gratitude for Representative Christopher Smith and
Senator Benjamin Cardin for their sponsorship of H.R. 3320, it is not only in
my name or in the name of the North American Council for the Museum, or even
for the three official partners of the museum -- the Polish government, the
city of Warsaw, and the Association of the Jewish Historical Institute.
The thanks, the sincere thanks, are to you on behalf of all the young people --
Poles and Americans, Jews and Christians, and all people of good will -- who
will now have a very good, a very special reason to visit Warsaw and Poland.
Thank you.
SMITH: Mr. Rolat, thank you so very much for your leadership on all of these
issues, but in particular your leadership on behalf of the museum and for your
kind words.
We've been joined by Congressman Jeff Fortenberry, who is a member of the
Foreign Affairs Committee, and a very active member very much focused on human
rights and humanitarian issues, including combating anti-Semitism.
So thank you for joining us, Mr. Fortenberry.
Just a few questions, if I could. The completion date 2011 -- I mean, when the
museum actually opens its doors -- I would hope that, you know, in the
planning, that there might be some thought given, especially since those of us
on the commission are committed to combating anti-Semitism. And it's truly a
bipartisan -- I mean, there's no space between us. We have been working on
that issue since day one.
The commission really emphasized, since the early 1980s, that issue -- Soviet
Jews and the like -- was raised on (inaudible). The thought -- and maybe you
can bring this back -- would be at some point if Poland, in the future -- and
the last time I understand that they hosted an OSCE parliamentary assembly was
back in 1997.
But should there be an offer from the Polish government to do it again, it
would seem to me that the venue of the museum, you know, would be a tremendous
opportunity for parliamentarians to really get further inculcated in how the
Jews lived and lived both positive and negative during those 1,000 years;
because we all on this commission -- and I believe it passionately -- believe
that, you know, members of parliament, when they go back to their individual
countries, they need to walk point and not just say, "Yeah, me too," and then
fade into the woodwork somewhere when it comes to these issues.
And it's all about sensitizing, mobilizing, educating. And my sense is that
this museum is going to be the quintessential educational tool going forward to
propel that, especially in Europe.
The Holocaust Museum here -- and I've been through this museum several times.
I never walk out the same. Matter of fact, I actually authored some
legislation that is going to be on the floor we believe soon called, "The
Global Online Freedom Act, which is an attempt to ensure that Google, Yahoo,
Cisco, Microsoft and like are not complicit with dictatorships, have standards
that they have to follow in terms of personally identifying information, not
being part of -- for instance, like in China -- of the effort to promote
propaganda.
Because Google censors out anything that you and I would believe is human
rights. And they do it voluntarily amazingly.
Well, before the big hearing that we had three years ago -- it turned out to be
an eight-hour hearing -- I read a book called, "IBM and the Holocaust." And
the author talks about how, when he was going through the Holocaust Museum, he
saw this small box that had IBM indicia on it.
And then he, you know, did some looking into it and came to the conclusion,
based on his research, heavily footnoted in his book, that -- did you ever
wonder why the Gestapo always had all of those very well-laid-out prints of
where the Jews lived, because IBM made it happen.
And high-tech is doing it today, regrettably, in places like China and Belarus
and Saudi Arabia and elsewhere, Vietnam. But I think, you know, we need to get
those parliamentarians in to realize that, you know, what can be prevented
trough education -- and that came out of a visit by an author to the Holocaust
Museum. He ended up writing a very incisive book.
So I think so much good will come to of it. Hopefully many politicians and
lawmakers will be sensitized by their visit. So maybe at some point, either a
separate venue or something, that the Polish government, if they were to host a
P.A. suddenly again, that would be a wonderful place to do it; and really get
people immersed, because I think that's when things change. When you really
catch the spirit of what was, what is and what can be. So I just throw that
out as a possibility.
And secondly, the integration of Holocaust remembers education and sensitizing
for young people. Since I was back and forth and Alcee's doing the same thing,
and Jeff, for these votes, how well are you going to be able, do you think,
integrate getting Polish children and young adults, students and others into
the museum; because you've got to get them to set foot into the museum, so they
can, you know, be sensitized and educated? Whoever would like to take that.
JUNCZYK-ZIOMECKA: When we start this project long time ago, and there was no
other way to talk about the idea with Americans and with representatives of
other countries, until we invite people to come to Poland. The people found it
easy to organize the group that we call Mission to Poland. And among them were
Holocaust survivors. And I think that there's some different organization.
And that groups came.
And when they saw, on the spot, the places (inaudible) the Holocaust, the new
Poland -- which is energetic and vibrant. And when they start to talk to
people, they realize that something really happened in that part of Europe. So
we believe, on the principle context, they are different study groups that the
Polish government invite, representatives of parliament and governments. And
this is -- I agree with you, that it will be very important that we extend to
organize such a visit.
The coming occasion -- of course, there's some anniversaries are good occasion
to extent invitation. The coming occasion will be the 65th anniversary of
Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which will be commemorating in Poland, in Warsaw, in
three weeks. In all the Jewish organization, in the United States and in
Europe and in Israel, are invited to participate.
And I'm looking forward to it, because there are three people who are witness
participants in the Ghetto Uprising. And we would like surround them with the
young generations. And imagine the place. All of the people meet in front of
the Warsaw Ghetto heroes. And they will face the site where the future museum
is going to be built.
So they will be -- their past that we confront with ourselves. But we are
looking so at the future; because the museum is not only the core exhibition,
the story about the past. But it is going to be also place to meet, classes
for students, films, theaters, place for conferences, for people to meet, from
all over -- to meet, not only to learn, but also to confront ourselves with our
(inaudible), with our stereotypes and with stereotypes of others.
So I share your opinion that we have more concentrate on personal contacts.
And we have to invite each other. And I will pass this help to the Polish
government and to the president.
SMITH: I was suggesting that they explore the feasibility of, whether it be a
P.A. or an OSCE summit itself, at the museum.
HASTINGS (?): Yes.
JUNCZYK-ZIOMECKA: Yes.
WIERZYNSKA: Can I take the opportunity -- seize the opportunity to just talk a
little -- for a moment about the educational programs which we are actually now
conducting. The museum doesn't have a home yet. But we are already conducting
educational program, outreach programs to the community.
And one of my favorites is an international youth exchange program between
Poland and Israel. We send Polish students to Israel, and we receive Israeli
students in Poland. They live with one another. It's a home-stay, kind of
phased visit. It's a limited program. But we are committed to it, because it
has done wonders for the increase, the expansion, of the people, of the
leaders, the young leaders -- of dialogue in Poland.
There are many people interested in Jewish legacy and in Jewish culture in
Poland. But there are not that many people able to actually moderate a group
of young Israeli high school kids, who come to Poland on an educational tour;
and young Poles who do not know much about their Jewish peers. So this is a
very important program for us.
And we are trying now to -- and talking to Israeli authorities, so that they
can give us their young people who come -- about 30,000 of them every year --
come to Poland to see the sites of martyrology, the concentration camps; so
that one of the days -- one day of their seven-day stay is for meetings with
the Polish youth; because otherwise these young people leave Poland without
ever meeting a Polish person. And we need those meetings very much; otherwise,
there's no meeting of souls and no common history -- no common legacy that we
are creating together.
So thank you for the opportunity to talk about this.
HASTINGS: You introduced Jeff already? OK.
Representative Fortenberry, we're glad you're with us. We'll open up another
seat for him.
FORTENBERRY: Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's a privilege to be with you.
And we appreciate all of your good leadership on the floor. And if you'll
indulge me for a moment, I thought I'd make a quick comment to you and ask you
had any comment in return.
I've never had the privilege of visiting Poland; although Ms. Wierzynska -- my
roommate in college was named Weirzvicki (ph). So I hope that...
WIERZYNSKA: Close enough.
FORTENBERRY: Close cousin.
Nonetheless, Mr. Rolat, something you said I thought was particularly profound,
even though I didn't hear the full context of your comments. Your
conversations with young people in Poland who are less and less familiar -- as
the horrific events of World War II unfold to them, in Poland particularly --
are less and less familiar with that history. And yet, there's a real deep,
abiding interest in learning more about it.
I was reminded, even though again I've not visited Poland nor had the
opportunity to visit any of the concentration camps or other sites where such
horror took place there, I have done so in Germany. And as a young person, I
remember quite vividly being at Dachau and seeing the pile of shoes; and then
watching the film of person after person who had been killed or died of
starvation being so unceremoniously piled up, naked, in such an undignified
fashion.
And it's so overwhelming, the mind can almost become numb and desensitized to
it, until you remind yourself that every single one of those persons who was
being piled up in such a disgraceful, horrible manner had a mother, had a
father, had children, had hope, desire to live.
So I just want to commend you for your passion on this issue and for your
willingness for the commission today, Mr. Chairman, to entertain the concept of
providing whatever assistance is appropriate for us to provide in helping
preserve this memory, particularly as the event grows more and more remote; and
your willingness, as you said as well, to do so -- not only to look at the
past, so that we know that won't happen again, but to begin to open up new
dialogues and chapter for the future, particularly with the young people who
may live as far away as Israel now.
So I just want to commend you, again, for your passion on this. And I'm sorry
if this evokes painful memory for you, because I was reading a bit of your bio.
And...
(CROSSTALK)
ROLAT: Thank you for your comments. Thank you very much. I can only add an
answer that I'm very much involved in many different projects in Poland.
People think that I have, in my old age, have become a builder. And in fact, I
do. I sometimes say jocularly, I build bridges now. And I think those bridges
are very important.
But none is more important than our museum, because our museum is really for
the future. It is not a museum of the Holocaust. The Holocaust will obviously
be shown there as a very defining chapter of what happened to us in Poland.
But it is really to show young people especially -- it's a museum of life.
It's a museum of what life was like, of what the co-existence was like, in
times good and bad for almost 1,000 years. How much Jews had accomplished in
Poland. How important that millennium was for the Jews of Poland.
And I think that finally, only those corpses that you just referred to, they
too would be forgotten if not for museums.
FORTENBERRY: Yes.
ROLAT: But our museums will show more than just corpses. Our museum will show
life. And that, to me, is so important for my children, for my grandchildren,
for young people -- Jews, Christians, Americans, Poles.
FORTENBERRY: You've stated it well that we can do both and to remember, and
then also celebrate. Thank you.
ROLAT: Yes.
HASTINGS: Thanks very much, Jeff.
I appreciate very much all of you. And as I indicated my regrets for bouncing
back and forth as Representative Smith and I had to do. But the good thing
that came out of that is he brought Jeff Fortenberry back with him from the
floor.
Obviously, we are all big supporters. But I would like to take cognizance of
the fact that we received numerous letters. And I won't bother to go into all
of them -- and statements that will be included and made a part of the record.
I'd also like to recognize two good friends that I have worked with in a lot of
places around the world and here in Washington. And that's Erica Fitfield (ph)
from B'nai Brith and Mark Levin, my friend that works with Russian Jewry. And
I'm glad that they're here. I'm sure that there are numerous others. I just
happened to recognize them.
Ms. Wierzynska, how is the museum going to deal with resurgent anti-Semitism,
like the kind that last year greeted the publication of Jan Gross' book,
"Fear," which documented post-war anti-Semitism in Poland?
WIERZYNSKA: The museum, as it tells the story of a Polish-Jewish life and in
Poland. And it also deals with the anti-Semitism. There is no doubt that
these two topics are inseparable. And, for example, in the post-war gallery,
one of the main things is the theme of memory. And one of the memories that
are so painful is the Kielte (ph) program. That is, in fact, one of the big
topics of Jan Gross' book -- the Kielte (ph) program.
So as we see it, the publication of Jan Gross' book, which has sold in
thousands and thousands of copies to non-Jewish Poles, to Christian Poles, and
has been read by them; and people had to face these facts, because these are
facts that are not being denied. Even the critics of the books who look for
holes in the book cannot deny that the facts are correct; that there had been a
program; and that innocent people, including children, were killed. They have
to face these facts.
And I think it is -- these books have done our museum a great service, because
the discussion is out there. And Poles are reckoning with a very uncomfortable
past. They are dealing with it. They are sometimes unhappy with it. And they
are voicing their unhappiness. But it has become a part of the public
discourse.
I was thinking about bringing with me dozens and dozens of articles from the
recent months, that I get on my desk every day, dealing with Polish-Jewish
relations with a discussion on Jan Gross' book and other discussions. And I
can tell you that maybe half of them are articles that are about a
commemoration, a discovery, a dialogue going on, student exchange or, you know,
something positive. And the other half is about anti-Semitic incidents that
are taking place, et cetera, et cetera.
So the discussion is a public discussion -- something, as Ewa Ziomecka said,
unthinkable in the days of Communism. And I think we are slowly, slowly
reckoning with it; which is not to say that anti-Semitism is going away, as
this discussion is progressing. No. But I think our museum will have a
healing power by the very fact that it will show a story. And it will
counteract stereotypes that are often at the base of anti-Semitism for many
people.
HASTINGS: Yes. One of the letters that we received was from Rabbi Andrew
Baker of the American Jewish Committee, who has been actively involved as well.
And I wanted to take cognizance of that.
Mr. Rolat, a member of Poland's Jewish community was quoted as saying the
following: It is wonderful that they are building the museum, that the history
of Polish Jews will not fade into oblivion. But that's a lot of money to put
into history. Why can't they see that they're Jewish people who want to
continue Judaism, who are fighting to be Jewish? And how do you respond to
that concern that was expressed?
ROLAT: I really don't think that we need to worry about Jews who want to
continue to be good Jews here in the United States or in Israel, or for that
matter in most of the world. Synagogues are thriving. So are Talmudic schools
and so on.
I think that history is perhaps the only one that's lacking, especially I would
say for some of my co-religionists who need actually to go to present-day
Poland, which is not the post-war Poland of Communism, where everything was
distorted and upside-down. But regrettably -- and mind you, I do not look.
You know, I went through too much during the war. And I have an excellent
memory. And I remember what happened in the immediate post-war periods in
Poland. I was there.
But regrettably, some of the stereotypes persist also among my many Jewish
friends. And I can tell you that this exhibition, "Jews of Czestochowa," which
was accompanied -- it was part of the three days of memory. Since they, many
wonderful things have happened.
One of them was a revival, if you will, of a Jewish community, the small
community of Czestochowa. And we had two wonderful, wonderful return meetings,
at which hundreds of people came from all over the world.
And it was really great to read some of the comments which they've left: how
pleasantly surprised they were; and for me, how wonderful it was when I saw how
many of these stereotypes were shed aside, especially by the children; because
you see, it's the children who inherit these terrible memories, some of which
are very well-grounded, and some not.
HASTINGS: Yes.
ROLAT: And so I think the museum will -- the education role which the museum
will play cannot be overstated. And it cannot be overstated, as I mentioned
before, not just for out Jewish youngsters, but also for the Polish young
people who, by the way from my own experience I can tell you, are not really
very much interested anymore in this old anti-Semitism and so on. So that much
of these canards -- Poles drink their anti-Semitism, you know, from their
mother's breasts and so on. My answer to that is that mainly they now drink
formula.
(LAUGHTER)
HASTINGS: I certainly understand and appreciate. I do wish to share, and I
invite my colleague to continue with any other questions that he may have or
statements. But I want to make one recommendation that I don't think is
anything new at all; although Ms. Wierzynska, I would appreciate it very much,
as your pledges become fruitious -- in real terms to become money -- that you
keep us advised as to that amount.
I can assure you that Chris Smith is going to be unrelenting in pursuing
dollars that our government rightly ought contribute. And I will be his
partner in that effort. And we're very fortunate, even though he is not here
-- a colleague of ours that served with us in the House now is in the United
States Senate and is co-chair. He and Chris Smith were on the commission when
I came to the commission.
And I can assure you that we will have a different perspective offered on the
Senate side. And hopefully, in spite of budgetary constraints here in the
United States, we will recognize the wisdom of this.
Let me broaden it and go along with you, Mr. Rolat, and you, Madame Minister.
The one thing that I've learned over the course of the years is that
multiethnic, interdenominational, ecumenical, intercultural activities help
create atmospheres of tolerance and understanding. Toward that end, I think
this museum will be a living example of how, when folk who are not Jewish and
who are not Polish, have an opportunity to see and experience those things that
did take place that were those atrocities, that it will make a difference.
It's ironic that I mentioned earlier that, at the groundbreaking as Ms.
Schlager (ph), who was there, pointed out -- that it was raining. Fourteen
years ago, my first visit to Poland was to Warsaw. And it was the
parliamentary assembly of the OSCE that was meeting there.
I went on a day trip to Auschwitz. And it was during that day trip that two
gentlemen -- one now the majority leader here in House of Representatives,
Steny Hoyer; and another from Canada who went on to become the foreign minister
and defense minister, named Bill Graham -- put my name in nomination without
asking me to be a rapporteur of a committee. I didn't know how to spell
rappporteur, let alone -- and when I got back from Auschwitz, and it was
raining all that day. But it was a chilling experience.
I also share with you, sir, I have visited Treblinka, where you lost your
family. And you can feel what transpired, even though you're not Jewish, and
even though you were not there.
One other experience from the time that you were experiencing the Second World
War with the bombing and the killings, I as a child was in Jersey City, New
Jersey. And I lived on a street going to second and third grade, where Polish
ex-patriots had come to the United States to work in factories. And so did
Italian emigres that lived there. It was Manning Avenue. I'll never forget
it. I, like you, have an excellent memory -- and my best friend.
And I was a little boy, I mean scrawny. And my best friend was a young Polish
fellow named Albami (ph) who was big and bad. And so I hung with him
everywhere we went in Jersey City, because he would help me not get beat up.
But my dad used to say if the Second World War had lasted another five years,
that segregation in America would have ended much quicker. I remember vividly
those Polish families and my family -- Black and Italian families -- sharing
coupons for shoes and for sugar and for meat and for gasoline -- as if it were
yesterday. And that bonding that took place there can be reflected in these
museums and in this museum.
And toward that end, I would hope that we have the kind of travel through it
once it is fully open that will allow for others. One final note on that, and
then I turn to Chris.
We encourage youngsters to go to the Holocaust Museum here in Washington. And
I have had the good fortune of meeting with some of them after they have
visited the Holocaust Museum and not always Jewish children -- Black and white
children. And it makes a lasting impression. Of all of the places that they
visit here in Washington, I consider that to be of immense significance.
And so just like that museum, Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, other places around the
world, provide this history of what transpired. I think that this museum will
be a shining beacon in that area of Europe and much needed. I apologize for
the length of my statement. But I turn to my colleague, Mr. Smith.
SMITH: I think the chairman really concluded very well. And I do have other
questions, but I'll forego those. But maybe just raise one issue that I think
could be very helpful. And you probably have already thought about it. And
that is that working with the American-Jewish committee and USAID, and although
the funding is on-again, off-again, we've been pushing the idea of training the
trainer, trying to get the police to understand what a hate crime looks like.
When you find or discover a Swastika on a Jewish grave, that's not some act of
hooliganism or some petty crime. That's an act of hate.
The thought would be -- and maybe in terms of outreach, because you'll be
outreaching, I'm sure, to just about everybody. But the more effectively you
can get police and police academy types as they're going through into the
museum to see it -- and I would agree with my friend and colleague, Mr.
Hastings. The first time I went to the Holocaust museum, I was just absolute
bowled over. I mean, I walk out of there numb. I've gone back many times
since. And every time, I walk out with some additional, "Oh, how could they?"
I remember looking at one big mural, like the size of this wall behind us, of
all these young German youth looking up at the Fuhrer with this look in their
eye of mesmerized by his rhetoric, I guess. But how could they have followed
such a monster? Well, they did. And some were naive. Lots of others were
complicit and very much aware and did it anyway.
So the more we can get police into the museum to get sensitized and maybe some
police training at that venue itself might be something you would consider;
because if you get the police right, less -- for years I've worked on the
Northern Irish issue and held 12 hearings on policing in Northern Ireland and
the lack of honesty, the collusion that was so rampant and, you know, mostly
was siding with the Protestant side. But it was a very, very bad situation.
Once you get the policing right -- they really know what they're doing, and
they know how to discern a hate crime, and are not looking the other way or
looking askance, and you prosecute, and there's predictability in the sentences
that are meted out, the better. And I think that getting police into the
museum could be a very, very helpful way of mitigating crimes against Jewish
people.
HASTINGS: Just one final statement, if I may. And then we'll conclude. And
that's Minister Ziomecka, you said in your remarks that the museum is a
national commitment above partisan divide; and that the government is going to
support, but not control, the content. We especially welcome the messages that
you've brought from your government and the mayor of Warsaw. And we'll also do
what we can, as you well know, to support the museum as well.
Yes, Mr. Rolat, you have...
(CROSSTALK)
ROLAT: I would just like to add, in line with what you just said, that that is
also a concern of the Jewish community here. And this is a very, very
important point to remember -- that this is really a partnership. In a way,
it's the first kind, actually, of this sort of a museum; because as you know,
in Europe museums are national. This museum actually is a partnership of the
Polish government.
And the Polish government (inaudible) the mortar, the bricks, the land. It's
all provided and paid for fully by the Polish government. But the exhibition
itself, the outreach programs, the educational programs and so on are really
overseen, provided, by the Association of the Jewish Historical Institute in
Warsaw, in very close relationship with us here in the United States and with
the Jewish communities in Europe.
So I think that's a very, very important point to remember -- that there is no
hint, nor any possibility, of any governmental censorship or dictation. And I
would only like to add, if I may, that we have here the one person who is
perhaps more responsible for this state of affairs. And I cannot really just
see this meeting adjourned without my mentioning; because this very week, the
largest news magazine in Poland, Post, has an article -- a two-page article --
about our museum, singling out the efforts and success of Secretary Ziomecka.
HASTINGS: Yes.
ROLAT: A Christian, the most wonderful example of what ecumenism should be all
about.
HASTINGS: Right.
JUNCZYK-ZIOMECKA: Thank you very much.
ROLAT: Thank you.
JUNCZYK-ZIOMECKA: Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
HASTINGS: With that...
JUNCZYK-ZIOMECKA: And if I may add one sentence. When the museum was almost
gave up, because there was no support, I was in Warsaw. And I called -- on the
project. It's a project. I lived in Warsaw at that time. And I called my
friends, Ewa, Steve and Sigmund and said, "Well, you have to help. You have to
help." And that, without them, this project will collapsed.
So I'd like to use this opportunity to thank all the American friends who are
on the board, who are supporting us already. I thank you them very, very much.
HASTINGS: Thank you, all. And that concludes our hearing. I'm delighted that
you were here. Thanks for everything.
WIERZYNSKA: Thank you.
[Whereupon the hearing ended at 4:00 p.m.]
END
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